Top 4 Best Practices for Creating the Best Marketing Organization Structure, Learned from Mindtree’s CMO

Drew’s conversation with Paul Gottsegen, Executive VP and Chief Marketing/Strategy Officer of Mindtree, will provide new CMOs with a step-by-step playbook for creating the best marketing organization structure possible. Paul provides listeners with 4 best practices to follow for ultimate success in digital, content, and social marketing.

Paul explains that “I’ve learned everything by making every mistake in the book.” Don’t repeat his mistakes, learn from his experiences. Those experiences have allowed him and his team to bring in over 100,000 sales pipeline leads over the past few years. The company’s stock value has quadrupled, and Mindtree has become a globally trusted brand.

Learn from one of the industry’s best experts on this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite. Click here to listen now!

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#1: Find out what your CEO/Executive Board’s marketing expectations are

A CMO should not spend a single dollar or make a single decision until they determine what goals the company leadership team has for marketing. By having their expectations outlined ahead of time, you’ll save time, energy, and resources. Paul struggled with conveying the true importance of marketing to Mindtree’s executive board, but he summarized it by saying, “Marketing isn’t easy! If it was, everyone would be doing it in amazing ways. You just have to keep pushing good content, having great interactions, and build company credibility.” This mindset needs to be conveyed to company leaders before any of the other best practices can be implemented.

#2: Build the best marketing tech stack infrastructure you can afford

Once marketing expectations and goals are established, a CMO should focus on building the best marketing tech stack possible. Paul explains that marketing professionals should “hire and fire tech stack tools quickly; don’t just sign a longer contract for a better deal!” He goes on to explain that many organizations forget about the staffing needs that come along with every tech stack tool and that every tool should provide quality metrics. Your tech stack should always be evolving and changing to fit the needs of the company.

#3: Focus on building a competitive brand

Clear marketing expectations and having the right infrastructure then allows a CMO to focus on building a competitive, trusted global brand. Paul explains that small marketing organizations shouldn’t immediately focus on going toe-to-toe with brand 10x-20x larger than they are. That growth will come in time. However, every brand does need to focus on telling a better story that explains why YOU can solve a customer’s problem better than anyone else. Marketing can and should be about more than securing contracts. It’s about building a reputable, trusted, expert brand. All of this can be accomplished by following these 4 best practices, fully explained in the audio for this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite.

#4: Don’t be afraid to partner with experts and empower your team

Even the CMO of Mindtree wasn’t afraid of turning to outside experts when he and his team hit a wall. There are thousands of qualified professional marketers that can provide third-party insights into your organization. Empowering your team to become experts in different areas is also immensely beneficial to a marketing organization’s structure. Specialties are great, employee silos aren’t. Your team should be just that, a team, all focusing on one common goal. This final best practice is best heard from Paul himself, so don’t miss this episode.

What You’ll Learn

  • [1:38] Drew’s guest introduction and why this episode is a playbook for marketing organization structure
  • [4:45] Paul’s biggest challenges as a new CMO and how he learned the best marketing lessons
  • [10:50] Hidden costs to tech stacks that often go overlooked
  • [13:37] How can a small B2B company develop a competitive brand?
  • [17:58] Making Mindtree’s tagline, “Welcome to possible,” become reality
  • [20:26] Paul’s proudest moment of marketing execution at Mindtree
  • [23:57] Utilizing metrics and how to drive more leads to the sales pipeline
  • [30:12] The biggest area of uncharted territory in B2B marketing
  • [34:23] Paul’s 2 do’s and 1 don’t for CMOs

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The Best Practices for Bold Marketing Strategies, Learned from Marketo’s CMO

Marketo’s bold marketing strategies are well known across the marketing industry. For this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite, Drew interviews their CMO, Sarah Kennedy. He also introduces a new segment on the podcast, Renegade Rapid Fire, where listeners can get to know Sarah in an informative and engaging Q & A session. Discover her best advice for CMOs, why she chose a career in marketing and her recommendation for a book that will renew your courageous marketing spirit.

Sarah left a 10-year tenure at a previous company and leapt into a five-month interview process at Marketo in order to diversify her experiences and pursue bold marketing. She is passionate about building an empowered and talented team as well as removing the shackles of perfectionism that plague the marketing industry.

You don’t want to miss the insights Sarah brings from Marketo into this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite. Discover why CMOs should be called to lead with conviction and the critical importance of risk-taking and experimentation through marketing.

This interview will unveil Marketo secrets that will push your own company to greater success. Click here to listen now.

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Why “fearless and bold marketing” is the mantra guiding Marketo into the future

When Sarah Kennedy joined the Marketo team, she immediately recognized the need to build a stellar team and fully understand the current Marketo brand story. Once she accomplished those tasks, she wanted to be able to have a single direction that would guide the company forward. That’s when “fearless marketing” was born. CMOs are born to lead, not waffle on ideas, and Sarah pursued fearless marketing relentlessly. She wanted to always circle back to customer engagement while also telling an even more powerful brand story that had been told in the past. Marketo has taken fearless marketing and turned it into an all-encompassing identity and even leadership summit events. Be sure to catch the full story on this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite.

Learn from Sarah’s 15 years of experience at top marketing companies to discover what makes a fearless marketer

The definition of a “fearless marketer” is a CMO that is not afraid to experiment and take bold marketing risks. By setting aside fear of failure, CMOs are able to pursue THE idea they truly believe in. Fearless marketers aren’t afraid to experiment with platforms and strategies that other companies are ignoring. Bold marketing decisions, even if they fail by conventional standards, allow companies to learn and grow. Having the right infrastructure in place to be able to learn from mistakes is critical. Sarah shares all of this advice and more, so be sure to give this episode your full attention.

CMOs are called to lead with conviction and empower their teams to pursue bold ideas without fear of failure

Sarah believes that it is a moral imperative for CMOs to empower their teams to make bold marketing decisions. When Drew asks her about the most Renegade thing she’s ever done in marketing, she explains that it’s any time she steps up and serves as a voice for both the customer and her team. Sarah also explains that CMOs should never doubt their ability to succeed. This interview is filled with even more inspirational advice that will leave you hungry for success and it should not be missed.

What You’ll Learn

  • [0:30] Drew introduces his guest for this episode, Sarah Kennedy, CMO of Marketo
  • [2:07] Drew gets to know Sarah through his new segment, Renegade Rapid Fire
  • [11:25] The most intriguing part of Marketo culture that drew Sarah in
  • [13:55] How the fearless mentality was created at Marketo
  • [16:53] Sarah’s definition of a fearless marketer
  • [23:20] CMOs are called to lead with conviction & stick to the ideas they truly believe in
  • [27:07] Content marketing and brand stories at Marketo
  • [32:54] Sarah’s final words of advice for CMOs
  • [34:19] Drew summarizes his conversation with Sarah Kennedy

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How Dropbox is Channeling Global Creative Energy Through a Bold Rebranding Effort

Few companies have mastered the art of channeling creative energy through a focused rebranding effort better than Dropbox. On this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite, Drew interviews CMO of Dropbox Carolyn Feinstein. Their shared love of creative energy and authentic storytelling makes for a podcast episode you don’t want to miss.

Carolyn discusses her passion for connecting deeply with consumers through stories as well as why Dropbox chose to “fix something that wasn’t broken” all on this episode. Be sure to listen to discover how Carolyn’s team shifted the market’s perspective about the well-loved company and its offerings.

With over half a billion worldwide users, Dropbox is among the best for workflow technology companies. Their ability to roll out massive internal changes while simultaneously conveying the right story to loyal consumers is encouraging.

Hear all about the challenges tackled, lessons learned, and joyful successes on this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite. Click here to listen now.

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How did Dropbox approach such a massive project? By following these three main ideas

Carolyn’s team is passionate about storytelling. She explains to Drew on this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite that connecting people to one another through quality products and touching stories is the best way to begin a rebranding project. After realizing that Dropbox wanted to reinvent itself, Carolyn followed three main ideas that dictated their path: the art of storytelling, achieving buy-in from internal audiences, and listening to the voice of loyal customers. To hear how she skillfully knit these steps together into one successful mission be sure to listen to this episode.

Rebranding should not be incremental – bold actions conquer fear and allow your company to make huge strides forward

Dropbox’s biggest success throughout the rebranding process was persuading every member on the team that bold actions were the way to achieve ultimate success. Drew is also a huge proponent of the idea that incremental steps don’t move companies forward. Carolyn knew she needed to snap people to attention and have them understand that Dropbox is more than cloud storage. While there will always be some concerns about restructuring a brand’s identity, moving forward with confidence is the ultimate way to launch your company into the next chapter of success. You’ll surely learn from this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite so be sure to give it your full attention.

The crisis of modern work is “death by distraction” – hear how Dropbox is channeling the world’s creative energy and allowing people to work to their full potential

The modern workplace is plagued with notifications, emails, and deadlines. Carolyn and her team at Dropbox recognized this issue and wanted to solve it. Their solution? Streamlined services and products geared at freeing teams from monotonous and time-consuming tasks so they can unleash their creative energy. The goal? Global teams working on a united platform to create projects that will change the world. That’s why Dropbox continues to be a leader in workplace technology and creative storytelling. This interview is one you don’t want to miss.

What You’ll Learn

  • [0:30] Drew asks the question, “if it’s not broken, should you break it anyway?”
  • [2:00] Carolyn’s go-to story to share with marketers
  • [6:16] The biggest moment for Carolyn when she was with Electronic Arts
  • [11:03] The massive rebranding project Carolyn helped Dropbox navigate
  • [14:27] Shifting the consumers’ perspective of Dropbox
  • [16:57] How Dropbox handled the fear of changing a well-loved brand
  • [21:40] The internal rollout of Dropbox’s rebranding project
  • [23:57] Dropbox is becoming an eponym and approaching the level of Google or FedEx
  • [26:00] The art of a living, dynamic workspace product
  • [28:15] Distraction = death in the modern workplace, and how Dropbox is unleashing global creative energy
  • [31:08] The biggest lessons learned throughout this bold rebranding mission and the 3 main measures used to measure a storytelling effort
  • [35:06] Drew summarizes this inspiring episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite

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How Arrow Electronics Reinvented Storytelling Marketing and the Importance of Taking Risks

In order to achieve storytelling marketing success, CMOs have to be willing to take risks. Even with all of the data and metrics available to evaluate, sometimes the best ideas come directly from human intuition.

On this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite, Drew interviews Rich Kylberg, Vice President of Corporate Marketing and Communications at Arrow Electronics. Arrow is a $24 billion global supplier for a wide array of technology and products, and Rich has helped them break into new ways of communicating internally and externally.

Throughout this podcast, Rich explains how his background in literature allows him to see marketing campaigns in new ways and why casting a vision internally is needed before you can communicate identity externally. Arrow’s groundbreaking SAM vehicle technology is revolutionizing many industries, and you’ll be inspired by Rich’s explanation of this pursuit.

Their conversation is a perfect mix of marketing knowledge and inspiration – you don’t want to miss it. Click here to listen!

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How Rich helped Arrow create a common identity

When Rich joined the Arrow team, they had recently acquired over 130 companies and many hadn’t yet fallen in line with the overarching Arrow brand. Arrow was on the verge of becoming a holding company too comfortable in their own success, but Rich was determined to take some risks and create a guiding theme that would direct every employee and customer interaction. Thus, the phrase “guiding innovation forward” was born. Rich explains that “you have to inspire your employees before you can market your company externally” and this progress was essential for Arrow to continue growing. It created a conversation starter that is still being talked about today. To hear exactly how Rich achieved this lofty goal, be sure to give this episode a listen.

Why risk taking in marketing is so important

Rich and Drew are adamant about risk-taking in marketing – it’s one of the key aspects of being a Renegade Thinker. On this episode, Rich explains that the opportunity to attain exponential rewards are worth taking substantial risks and that the fear of mediocrity is often the driving force behind risk-taking. CMOs in any B2B environment should ask themselves these questions: What risks am I willing to take in my marketing? What will be the source of my courage? How am I going to prepare? After you consider these questions, remember that as a marketer you need to be empowered to try ideas, keep what works, and move past what doesn’t. Without risky marketing decisions, Rich and his team never could have developed the storytelling marketing campaign that moved Arrow into the future of connecting with clients and telling great stories. Be sure to discover the story on this episode.

Arrow’s innovative storytelling marketing campaign and how Rich and his team burst through the barriers they encountered

Arrow Electronics recently unveiled their latest storytelling marketing campaign, and it’s one that resonates with people across the country. When Rich and his team were connected with a former Indy Racing League race car driver who was sadly diagnosed as a quadriplegic after a crash in 2000, they came up with the SAM car technology – a car that would allow drivers with disabilities to regain their independence. When asked about the project, Rich’s team explained that “We hope the SAM car continues to drive technology innovation forward and inspire people to dream big because anything is possible.” Had Rich and his marketing team forgone risk-taking and stuck with what is “normal” and expected in the marketing industry, this amazing project never would have left the idea board. It’s sure to inspire you and your team to take marketing risks and delve into the unknown so be sure to get all of the details by listening to this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite.

What You’ll Learn

  • [1:25] Drew introduces his guest for this episode, Rich Kylberg of Arrow Electronics
  • [2:48] Rich’s favorite risk-taking story from his childhood
  • [8:00] How Rich’s educational background impacts his current career
  • [13:18] The story behind how Rich joined the Arrow team and how they created a common identity
  • [17:45] Taking the internal identity and transforming it into an external message
  • [21:55] Arrow’s program that brought their innovative ideas to life that enhance humanity
  • [27:30] The barriers Rich’s team encountered while developing the SAM technology
  • [33:00] Rich shares the best lessons he learned through the SAM journey
  • [37:13] Why you should bring in an outside firm to assist your company in storytelling
  • [39:51] The power of a plan on a page
  • [42:07] Drew summarizes his conversation with Rich

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How to Rebrand on a NPO Budget

If you ever wondered about the validity of the old proverb, “necessity is the mother invention,” then you’ll want to read word for word my extensive interview with Dara Royer, Chief Development and Marketing Officer of Mercy Corps and winner of The CMO Club‘s Officers Award. Like her organization, Dara works miracles on a minuscule budget and in the process provides yet another illustration that the cool CATS of marketing get it done:

  • Courageous: Dara talks about courage as her secret weapon, noting that you have to “trust, in what you see and what you believe is an opportunity if you’re going to create big positive change.”
  • Artfulness: It takes a deft hand at the tiller to turn an organization in a new branding direction. As Dara puts it, “Being right isn’t always enough to get you to the finish line,” you need to listen and let others participate in the process.
  • Thoughtfulness: As a purpose-driven organization, thoughtfulness is at the core of the brand she explains, “If you want to create transformational change in individuals, in communities, in our broader world, you need to not only meet people’s urgent needs of today, but you need to focus on helping them build a stronger tomorrow.”
  • Scientific: In addition to tracking key business metrics like fund-raising, Dara is committed to constant improvement through a test & learn approach: “We’re evolving little things along the way to make sure that the brand is really usable for people.”

Drew: I have this theory that there’s at least a little renegade in every CMO. What is one way that you’re a renegade?

Dara: Where others run away, I run toward challenges. In fact, like a bee to honey. Truly, if you tell me something can’t be done or there’s no way that we can accomplish something, then to me that’s the clarion call to action. We’re going to take on that challenge and run square at it and try to wrestle it to the ground. For example, there are 2 million purpose driven organizations in the U.S., and at Mercy Corps we’re working to put ourselves on the map with a smaller marketing team and a smaller budget than some of the big dogs. We’re already making progress against that goal.

Drew: Running towards a challenge is certainly a very renegade thing. When you’re running at the challenge, and you are underfunded, what’s one nontraditional technique that you used with success?

Dara: We handle a lot of things in-house that most other organizations or businesses would outsource. A great example would be global brand research. There are many organizations that would pay big bucks to do that. We didn’t have those dollars so we actually trained our teammates that work in many of the different countries in which we operate. We taught them research methodology and we taught them how to talk to their fellow team members, government officials in the area, and the beneficiaries of the people that we help in order to pull out insights that are going to be valid for us to synthesize as part of a global brand research. The benefit of that was that we were actually bringing them along, our global teammates, in the process of building our global brand and that was actually the upside of taking a road less traveled.

Drew: We have a client who’s looking at a global study and its hugely expensive to do it right, to translate it into multiple languages and then to try to synthesize the data after it’s in these languages and then bringing it back to English. Using employees to field the research is brilliant — the tricky part is getting them trained. How did you make sure that they did this in a valid research fashion?

Dara: It’s a great question because as we all know, garbage in garbage out. If you didn’t have a solid research methodology, then you won’t have valid results. We did a number of trainings with the people who were going to participate and then we actually had them do mock interviews, because this was all qualitative research, so we could give them feedback on the way they were approaching the work. Every single person was trained in that same fashion following this research guide that we created. The proof was in the pudding. The results that we got back were consistent and valid, and the reason we knew they were applicable is because we were able to pull out the same kind of thematics regardless of the country in which the research was done. The same themes were coming to the surface–incredibly powerful, and much less expensive than the traditional way of approaching the work.

Drew: I’m curious, because we encourage our clients to do research for any number of reasons, how you used the research once you gathered all this information.

Dara: The research was the underpinning of our brand refresh that we did and it was important to help get the organization out of what I call the echo chamber, where we talk to each other, we nod our heads, and we all share a brain around what we believe the truth is. Yet, there are lots of different perceptions that exist out there. Part of what we were trying to do was show the organization some different perspectives that exist, so that was step one. We shared this information internally, and it absolutely informed how we positioned our brand strategy and ultimately our visual and our verbal identity.

Drew: We all know that it’s hard to get marketing messages to stand out. What’s the one thing you do to make sure that your marketing cuts through?

Dara: It is absolutely a challenge. We are focused on the overall epic, not the episode. What I mean by that is particularly for an organization like ours, that works in 42 different countries, our work is so vast and so diverse but we’re trying to tell one big story vs. lots of little stories. We want to make sure that whenever anyone is interacting with Mercy Corps and sees any kind of content, be it a video or a direct mail piece, that they’re understanding what that larger story is. Telling the epic, being consistent in the story that we’re telling, is a huge focus for us in trying to break through the noise. Because when you try to tell many different episodes, people start to not understand who you are, what you do, and why you matter.

Drew: I haven’t heard storytelling put that way, but certainly we all love epics. What is that epic story that you’re telling for Mercy Corps?

Dara: Our epic is rooted in this fundamental belief that a better world is possible. If you want to create transformational change in individuals, in communities, in our broader world, you need to not only meet people’s urgent needs of today, but you need to focus on helping them build a stronger tomorrow. Our response to an earthquake in Nepal or the way that we are helping millions of refugees who are fleeing war conflict in their countries has a common theme, which is that our donors, or the people that partner with us, are the bridge from a challenge today to a better tomorrow that we believe is possible in the world.

Drew: What are some of the tricks that you learned to make sure that you have a great story?

Dara: I’m going to tell you a story in my answer. First, you start with relevancy and an understanding of the audience that you’re trying to engage with. What is going to make a story relevant to their world and their life long enough for them to pause? The story I’m going to tell you is about our desire at Mercy Corps to talk about our conflict resolution work. Sounds like a snoozer, right? It’s important, though, because when we work with refugee populations and you have 2 million refugees flowing across borders, it can create huge tensions in communities. We set out to tell this conflict resolution story, and the story we ended up telling was from the perspective of a mother who had been part of a Mercy Corps conflict resolution program. She, and the other mothers in this group, ended up creating a playground where their children, Syrian and Lebanese children, could come together and play together. The result was incredible. These women all became part of a larger community and what you heard was her voice, you saw her tears, you saw the children playing on the playground together. It was incredibly compelling and it was relevant and relatable to any mother, anyone who’s been a child, or anyone who could get into the heart of the story. Yet it was on a very wonky subject. Kudos to our team and our producer for heading into this situation and saying “what would make this a relatable story to people?” You show vs. tell. We showed something vs. saying “we want to talk to you about the importance of conflict resolution.”

Drew: It’s amazing because it’s not preachy but it’s very clear and it’s very moving and that’s why we all like storytelling. What resource would you suggest other renegade marketers look to?

Dara: This is a personal resource that I think renegade marketers need to tap into. Simply put, it’s courage. When you’re a renegade and you’re disruptive, either in your organization or the marketplace, you’re going to have opinions that aren’t popular. You’re going to stand alone. You’re going to have to be able to dig deep and have confidence, and trust, in what you see and what you believe is an opportunity if you’re going to create big positive change. The one resource is that you have to be courageous.

Drew: What’s the toughest lesson that you’ve learned when it comes to marketing?

Dara: Being right doesn’t always matter. I was schooled in speech and debate, and I competed for a long time, and I learned in that trade if you brought the right evidence to the table and you were a good speaker, you generally win. It doesn’t work that way in the real world and in business, particularly in today’s day and age. I think a lot of people will come to the table whether they work in HR or finance and everyone thinks they’re a marketer. You can’t just show up at the table like you’re hired to be the expert and you wear the CMO hat or you’re in charge of marketing and therefore everybody should just pause and listen to you. You have to have great negotiation skills, you have to understand internal dynamics and politics. You have to be a good listener. Being right isn’t always enough to get you to the finish line.

 

Drew: Let’s dive deeper into the brand relaunch and the key steps.

Dara: Step one was that we had to convince the organization that we needed to pay some attention to our brand. This first step was actually selling senior leadership and our board on the reality that there is so much potential for our brand to be stronger than it is, but it’s going to require us to find the simple human truth that exists at the core of our brand and reposition ourselves to be successful in the marketplace. Step one was gaining some internal buy in. Once we got that, we moved into really extensive research- qualitative and quantitative research at a global scale. With those insights in hand, the next step was building our brand strategy and there were three components: the essence or positioning, our attributes, and our behaviors- because we know brand is not just how you think or how you speak, it’s how you act as well.

Drew: What was the next step?

The next step was to build the visual and verbal identity, our brand standards, and a toolkit so that team members in our very decentralized organization could start bringing the brand to life themselves. The next step, which I will say is still ongoing, is what we called our rolling rollout. Rather than a giant “ta-da” launch, we started our rollout in Uganda about a year ago at our global leadership gathering. We continued to evolve the brand, create more tools and resources, bring the brand to life, and help our field teams bring the brand to life as well. It was a detailed, multi-step process, handled largely by our in-house team.

Drew: Was any of the brand development outsourced at all?

Dara: It was. For the quantitative research, we did work with an outside firm. The majority of the qualitative research we handled in-house. For the brand strategy, we did outsource the first piece of that work as well. The visual and verbal identity, the rollout, all the tools, and the creation of the brand book, was all handled in-house.

Drew: What were some of the hurdles that you had to overcome in order to bring this program to fruition?

Dara: As I’ve always said, your first audience is your internal audience. I’d say bringing the team, the global team of 5,000 people, along with us in this process. Even just helping people see that brand is not bad. There was a view in an organization like ours that brand is selling out and that our work should just be able to stand on it’s own. That was certainly a hurdle, bringing the organization along. I would also say it was helping people believe in something that they’ve never seen before. They’ve never really seen a brand process or been inspired by a brand product and we had to bring them along in that. That was a challenge.

Drew: What were some of the other challenges?

Dara: The budget was absolutely a challenge too. It was daunting to think about creating an entire visual, verbal identity for a global organization and then rolling it out globally with what was originally a $50,000 budget for all of those steps. I had a team here who had never done brand work before, who I turned to and asked to be a partner and to do this work in addition to their normal day job. When I say everyone said it couldn’t be done, there were certainly moments where I thought to myself “what are we doing here? Can this actually be done?” We just decided failure wasn’t an option. The brand needed to be as strong as our global work and our global mission. We plowed through, but it was certainly a challenge. When you have a field-led organization that has a very diffuse strategy, how do you get to a common factor that is our singular human truth? Getting to that essence was really challenging for us, but we got there, it’s resonating and that’s powerful.

Drew: Was there an “a-ha” moment when the folks suddenly understood, because I think the issue of a nonprofit organization having a brand is an interesting one. Did you find that they suddenly went “oh” and lightbulbs went off because you suddenly got them to understand brand?

Dara: The lightbulbs went off at the right moment, but it was a real nailbiter. When we went to the global leadership gathering in Uganda, there was an hour-long presentation on where we’ve been, where we had come to, and how our brand is going to come to life. That was the moment where the lightbulbs went off. It’s because people all of a sudden could see themselves in the brand. What I realized is that the fear people had was that we were going to tell a story that wasn’t authentic to who we are. When they realized that the heart of the brand was totally rooted in authenticity and was just shining a bright light on our work in a way that gave a nod to the diversity of what we do but also spoke to what tied us together and what united us as a global group, that’s when people got it.

Drew: How did your targets react?

Dara: They were so moved and tearful and I had people, from our country director in Iraq to the woman who heads our programming in Nigeria, come to me and say “I have never been so proud to be a part of this organization.” That was the lightbulb moment. They saw themselves in it and then they understood what it is we’re trying to accomplish. It wasn’t until that point, though.

Drew: That’s a great story. How did you measure success with the rebranding?

Dara: Step one was clearly the response that we were getting internally, because in an organization that’s not centralized, our team members in the field actually have to activate and bring our brand to life and if they’re not feeling it, and they don’t believe in it, they’re not going to do it. The brand would fall apart. Step one was that people bought in. Every week, I get photos from people in the field who are so proud to share with us ways that they’re bringing the brand to life themselves consistently. That tells us that we’re getting the internal buy-in we need to continue to move forward.

Drew: Do you have other measures?

Dara: The other thing that we’re starting to see as we’re being more consistent and bringing this to life externally is obviously greater response rates in terms of increase in giving. We’re coming off of our strongest end of year in fundraising and we’re seeing people who are more engaged too. They’re more interested in spending time with our story and hearing more. All of those metrics are moving in the right direction and that tells us that our story not only resonates with us internally, but it’s also resonating with other people.

Drew: What would you say the biggest lessons learned from all of this are?

Dara: I think there’s been an evolution in brand development over the past 5-10 years. The days of the big “ta-da,” the big reveal, where you would do a giant brand launch and you’d have a thousand page brand book and you’d say “look, we’ve answered all these questions now go forth and conquer” are over. Iteration is now king. I think we learned that it was important for us to be willing to not answer all the questions and that’s why we’ve called it a rolling rollout, where we are engaging in the stakeholders that are key to bringing the brand to life and we’re getting their input along the way. We’re evolving little things along the way to make sure that the brand is really usable for people, and that it’s responsive to how people need to bring the brand to life within a framework. I think iteration is a big key lesson.

How to Make Agency Partnerships Work

As chief Renegade for the better part of two decades, I’ve witnessed first hand the innumerable variations client-agency relationships can take. Some have been multi-dimensional like our phenomenal 15-year partnership with Panasonic.  Others have been more focused like the BankCab guerrilla marketing program which drove customers to HSBC for 13 years. Some clients have given us a clean slate to solve a particular marketing challenge while others have been more prescriptive, defining the channels they want us to cover.  Some lay out the budget parameters, others ask us what we need to get the job done.  Some really truly treat us like partners, others as interchangeable vendors.

And here’s the crazy part, at Renegade we are incredibly selective about the clients we work with, seeking out the one’s that welcome Renegade thinking and want mutually beneficial partnerships. Yet somehow we’ve never been able to predict which relationships will endure.  Part of the unpredictability is personnel changes — you start with one client team and can end up with a very different one down the road. Part of it is that only a few clients put a premium on their agency relationships such that they actually train their marketing employees on the care and feeding of these relationships.  One exception to that rule is American Express which is why I was so thrilled to interview Pepper Evans, who until recently was Vice President of Branding & Member Engagement Marketing. Pepper actually ran a training program for AmEx marketers helping these folks learn how to be effective clients and as a result get better results from their partners. If the old saying, “Clients get the work they deserve” is true, read on to find out how you can always be on the right side of that formula. (By the way, you can hear Pepper speak at the Incite Group Marketing Summit October 27-28.)

Drew: Some clients approach agencies as vendors, others as long-term partners.  Can you speak to some of the advantages of the partnership approach? Is there measurable value here? 

Pepper: I firmly believe you should treat your agency like a partner in order to get the best results. That mindset leads to a different way of working together. First, you openly share your business objectives and metrics so that the agency can help you solve your issues. After all, you’ve hired them to provide a different point of view. Second, a partnership mindset assumes trust from the outset. You establish trust as a team norm, meaning they know you as the client have the agency’s back and will defend them and the work internally. In turn, the agency tends to give 110% to the project. Third, by being partners, there is an assumed give and take in the relationship, a mutual respect for each other’s expertise that is critical to success. What I’ve seen is that all of this leads to a commitment to doing great work together.

Drew: What are some of the things you think clients can do make their agency relationships more productive? 

Pepper: Clients can make their agency relationships more productive by doing three things:

1—Understand the client’s role in the creative process. It is to provide strategic direction and feedback in the form of comments against the brief. It is not to play creative director.

2—Be appreciative of the creative process. When giving feedback, remember that a human being is behind the work. Don’t be a bully. Say thank you early and often!

3—Recognize the agency is a business too. Both sides have to be financially successful.

Drew: A lot of clients are moving to project-based relationships versus AORs. Are there any downsides to this approach? 

Pepper: Project-based engagements mean that team turns over more frequently, leading to new agency staff on your business. You lose that deep institutional knowledge. On the plus side, it can drive innovation by cross-pollinating ideas across brands more frequently.

Drew: Over the years, it’s been my experience that clients with agency experience either make the best or the worst of clients. Do you see it as an advantage that you had worked on the other side of the table? How did that make you a “better” client?

Pepper: I think former waitresses fall into the same camp: some of us, like me, always tip well while others have such high expectation about service, that nothing can live up! In general, I do think it’s an advantage because it makes you more empathetic to who is sitting across the table from you. Anyone who has had a late night scrambling for a client deliverable is well aware of the impact of each client request and how that trickles down the chain within an agency. Without that inside knowledge, it would be easier to treat the agency as a faceless group of people just spitting out the work. And that’s where the vendor mentality can sneak in.

Drew: Working with an agency is an art form that many have yet to perfect.  Is this a teachable skill? Is this something that a senior marketer can and should teach to more junior employees who are new to working with agencies?  (if you did this at AmEx, please elaborate)

Pepper: This is a skill set you can learn but I also think the partnership mindset has to be emphasized from the top down. In my last role at Amex, I held an agency day for all the marketers in Plenti who worked with our various agencies. We taught them how to write a brief, give creative feedback, and, importantly, work with the agency as a partner. Many of the junior people had never been exposed to these concepts in a formal setting before. I see this as almost a life skill. Plus, a good agency can make you look smart and help your career progression, which is another motivation.

Drew: What are some of the biggest and preventable mistakes that agencies make that prevent enduring them from having relationships?  

Pepper: I’ve seen agencies lose relationships in two main ways. The first is by getting greedy and pushing work that is unnecessary, which fractures trust. The second is failing to treat the client with equal respect and assuming an “agency knows best” approach.

Drew: You won a leadership award at Amex for your relationship building efforts.  Can you elaborate on that? 

Pepper:: I’m very proud of winning the President’s Leadership Award. It was in recognition of my ability to motivate and manage both internal and external teams through challenging situations. I believe my job as a leader is to point out the North Star and then use every carrot (not the stick!) in my garden to encourage people to find the creativity, strength, and imagination within themselves to get there.